In reference to the Zero Carb Health, Diabetes Discussion.
Buried in the replies section of comments to a post was a fascinating conversation that deserves to be curated. Content curation is a powerful social media technique that really helps clarify all the information presented by so many different people.
THE ISSUE
Some commenters warned about too much protein and some warned that there is no such thing as too much protein. To me both are right depending upon the amount of damage or adaption to a disordered metabolism a person is dealing with. I think this curated information belongs in the diabetes thread. So I took it upon myself to curate the info and add it to this thread.
THIS IS FOR DIABETICS ONLY and only for those who have over 6 months of strict adherence to Zero Carb Health’s normal advice to eat meat and drink water to satiety only when hungry. Do not experiment until you have tried normal for 6 months to a year!!
BEGIN CURATED CONTENT
Mabry: Actually Marcy, Magnus, I wrote that early in my ZC journey. While I don’t think eating excess protein is dangerous or harmful to the body, I do think for people with metabolic damage to the liver and pancreas from years of carbohydrate consumption who have severe insulin resistance and have lost the ability to initiate the initial “insulin surge” when carbs or protein are eaten, that excess protein can stall weight loss. Though protein does not cause harm, I do think it can slow the healing of the liver and pancreas. About 5 months into ZC I hit a wall with my weight loss and only by decreasing my protein and increasing my fat intake was I able to restart the weight loss and have now lost another 27 lbs down the 182 and 6’1″. It looks like my ideal weight is going to be somewhere in the low to mid 170s so almost there and I continue to lose. My simple formula is 1 gram of protein per day per kg of body weight consumed as fatty food, mostly 27% fat hamburger, sausages, hotdogs, aged cheddar cheese, eggs fried in butter and if I eat steak, I put a large amount of whipped butter on each bite to up the fat. It’s working for me. Still let me say that eating a simple “all the meat you want” diet is a 1000 time more healthy than one that contains plant products, still if your metabolically damaged, it may take several years before you’re able to lose all the weight you would like on such a diet if ever depending on the level of damage.
Yasmin Mullings, I have found 4 gram protein per ounce beef sausage and 5 gram hotdogs. the 27% hamburger runs around 6. I try to keep it between 1-1.5 grams protein/ kg/day or around 100 grams for me. I am never, ever hungry, the fat is the secret to avoiding hunger and cravings. Whipped, unsalted butter on everything is my secret weapon.
Mullins: Paul… I think this is important information that is an excellent adjunct to the fundamentals of fatty meat and water.
For those people who have given the basics of ZC a fair run and are not seeing the results they want, this is information they can use down the road after adaption.
Thank you for always being willing to share your knowledge and experience.
Shute: I always followed The Bear’s advice: “I don’t weigh, measure or worry about the amounts I eat, whether it be protein or fat. I eat fat first if I can, until it feels right, and then lean till I feel satisfied.”
Coquille: I agree, in terms of evolution, it seems that human (without the ability to kill big animals without weapon) began eating as a scavenger and total carnivorous like wolves or lions eat mostly the lean part. So scavengers are left mainly the fat, BTW it managed to raise the brain volume.
I live in Europe, where we got 2/3 of meat pieces available containing less than 8% total fat.
I think it’s a good thing not to count macros, so I try my best just eating butter according to my feeling and the leanness/dryness of the meat I eat.
Kiernan: If you check the files, ZCH is aware that in several countries, meat is too lean to be eaten alone.
I think in terms of the protein/insulin issue, it’s important to keep in mind that more protein requires more insulin. If your body works correctly, you won’t ever have a blood sugar spike because you will make enough insulin to cover the protein. In those of us with diabetes, this isn’t the case. If I eat leaner meat and don’t appropriately cover for it, I can have a serious spike 4-6 hours later. Food for thought!
Note my body makes absolutely no insulin so I can really see this phenomenon with no “blinders” … And in the absence of insulin, protein definitively turns into cake. 🙂
Mabry: Janetta an ounce is about 30 grams and contains an average of 7 grams of protein so for meat it’s about so about 14 oz or 420 grams of meat for me. Sausage and regular hot dogs are 4-5 grams protein per ounce so you can eat more and of course all the fat like butter you want.
Shute: None of these studies on excess protein were ever done on people who eat ZC diets. It’s not the protein causing the problem, it is the carbohydrates.
Our ancestors did not have access to fatty meats. Most wild meats are quite lean. They valued fat, but it was often not available like it is today. Millions of years of human history debunks, the excess protein theory.
Laura, in the 9 years I have been studying this diet, some people do well on less fat and some people do better on more. There is no “rule”. I happen to gain weight very quickly, if I add fat to my meats.
People need to become ZC and actually try it for 6 months to a year before messing with this though. Messing with ratios in the beginning will only prevent people from becoming ZC. :/
You can try it Kimberly. You should know within a week if it is going to do anything for you. There is no need to count and measure. Just buy fattier meats and add butter or bacon grease to it. Be sure to stock up on T-paper. 😉
Adding fat does not help most people. Many ZCers have tried it, including myself, and all those KETO people are doing it and crapping themselves every time they sneeze. If fat was the answer to weight loss we would all be adding it.
END CURATED CONTENT
MY RANTINGS
There is normal response and there is adapted response or ZeroCarbHealth versus MyZeroCarbHealth. MyZeroCarbHealth merely refers to the tweaks you make to the normal advice to accommodate any adaptations your metabolism has to your personal malady. The body is a miracle of adaptation, but you must give it a lot of time to formulate its adaptations to any consistent dietary modification. According to Dana following a 6 month or more rule makes sense, do not tweak or experiment until at least two seasons have passed and potentially a whole annual cycle may be best. Otherwise you could miss the magic of Zero Carb Health and move on before you “get it”. To me “normal” is to just eat meat and drink water till fullness only when hungry. No measuring or counting macronutrients or working out until you can gauge whether normal works to achieve your health goal. “Adapted” response means that your goal was not achieved by following the normal advice after a loooooong time. Do not be in a hurry to diagnose yourself as adapted because terminal uniqueness is a common and deadly trick our human egos play on us. Wait 6 months to 1 year, longer is better!
What is your goal? It depends on your personal struggle; cancer, brain injury, hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, metabolic syndrome and all the diabetic permutations – types 1, 1.5, 2, gastric bypass, neurological disorder, etc…. The only way to thread the labyrinth is to follow the regimen in normal mode until you discover for yourself that normal does or does not apply and you may want to move toward a MyZeroCarbHealth orientation.
Normal response to ZeroCarbHealth is a great thing – much easier. You may discover that you need MyZeroCarbHealth geared toward whatever critical number makes sense for your malady. For a type 1.5 diabetic like myself the goal is lowering blood sugar and avoiding the ill effects of high blood glucose levels. Insulin seems to predicate on the amount of fat tissue carried, so extra adipose tissue is not so good in that case. So I want to mobilize fat, keep or grow the lean muscle, and maintain low blood sugars. I use DEXA scans for tracking body fat and HgA1c to track average blood sugar levels.
This is a great group because Dana and the admins and vets in Zero Carb Health are not dogmatic, they are guiding new people through a 6 month plus journey to thinking for yourself. Longevity requires that we all think for ourselves using the guidance of folks whose experience we trust.
You must be strict at first or you could miss the magic. After a long time you can be open to answering whether normal or adapted is your orientation. Only at that point can you experiment based on what you read in these threads and other information sources. Disallowing this ability to acknowledge experiments for adapted responses is dogmatism. “Once dogmatism turns out the lights, you might as well close up shop as a civilization and pull up the covers as a sentient life form. You get nowhere with unquestioning certainty. It’s thinking with your mind wide shut.” —Robert Altemeyer in The Authoritarians.
The thread concept is the solution but requires curation and a scientific attitude. Science does not claim to “know the answer” it is always learning and arguing and refining. The opposite of dogmatism. Authoritarian followers will get utterly lost due to dogmatic inclinations inherent to that personality trait. I am a follower and there is no shame in acknowledging this common trait. I also can be quite zealous and dogmatic, but I believe it is how I managed to make the transition to ZeroCarbHealth and shunning all plant eating for 10 months now. Curation is usually left to the individual reader.
HYPOTHESIS
For a diabetic as your ability to produce insulin, or lessen your resistance to insulin follows the progressive pathology of the disease you may have to count macronutrients; that is to say you may have to limit your daily intake of protein. You may also eventually try to add lean muscle to help lessen insulin resistance through weightlifting.
Insulin resistance and the destruction of the basal cells that produce insulin are Diabetes related adaptations to carbohydrates that start a cascade of effects that cannot be reversed after a point. That is bad news, but the good news is adopting a MyZeroCarbHealth regimen can provide a stimulus for the body to manifest adaptations that will arrest the progression and that can provide a happy prolonged life.
According to Dr Mabry he has taken to counting and limiting his protein intake so he can mobilize fat. He reports doing this because his reaction to excess protein immobilized his stored fat. Maybe it was a rise in his blood sugar and a related rise in insulin, sounds very logical, but there is no need for conjecture since he reports that counting protein and supplementing fat has mobilized his fat again.
Since starting the Body By Science workouts I have gained weight, exactly like Dana said I would. As my weight has increased so has my average blood sugars, again a predictable result. For MyZeroCarbHealth I have moved to fattier beef and added pork. I have also added some cheese to counter diarrhea that increased fat caused me. I can report less diarrhea now. I would like to try limiting my protein and increasing animal fat to see if I can maintain satiety while continuing to try to build muscle mass and improving my mitochondrial respiration. I will let you know how it goes.
Comments or questions? Please join us in the Zero Carb Health Facebook Group.